Muffin
Joined: May 05, 2002
# Posts: 23
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 15:27
Google needs to stop tweaking and work to resolve major rating/ranking problems.
Many of the pages now placed in the top ten have hidden text, hidden links and keyword stuffing in graphic images.
They have invisible Text (keywords) at the top and bottom of the page that only become visible
when highlighted on the cached page.
They have stand alone Keywords visible at top and bottom of the page which is blatent keyword stuffing.
They have graphic images stuffed with keywords.
The Sites are abusing Googles quality
guidelines - Specific Recommendations (http://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html):
Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings.
Avoid hidden text or hidden links.
So, it is not a mystery why the SERPS report bad results.
Perhaps a massive spam reporting campaign might get Googles
attention.
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yellowwing
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2526
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 15:42
I bet that if you keep track of 10 of them, most will be gone after the next Google Dance. Google seems to be updating the page titles just days after indexing. They may be skipping the anti-spam process until the refresh.
The title may be enough for the spam sites to get ranking for a few weeks. But not for long.
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SEOK
Joined: Jul 24, 2002
# Posts: 288
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 17:11
Yellowwing... I do not know the genre of your sites, but I can assure you the Google does almost nothing about even serious spammers. I reported a spammer in my genre every week for seven months and nothing... nearly a year later they are still spamming the index. If you really want to do something about spammers find their server and beat it with a bat... other than that expect google to rank them prominantly.
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 17:31
I'd agree that it's frustrating. It doesn't seem like it should be that difficult for an engine like Google to tell when a site is using such blatent techniques as hidden text. I often have a hard time understanding how something gets through the filters.
But the reality is that there are a zillion ways to spam and it takes time to catch them all. Spam sites enjoy top rankings for a while. Sometimes even a year, but they DO eventually get caught. (Though more rise to take their place...)
Google will always have to update their filters, take spam reports to help out, and fight the battle. So personally, if I notice something bad, I report it, but in the meantime, I just keep working to improve the optimization of my sites so that they rank more highly. When those spam sites get caught, it's a great chance for my sites to jump in the rankings.
Not really a solution, but there's not much I can do about it besides that. 
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pilgrim00
Joined: Oct 19, 2000
# Posts: 92
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 17:33
I agree with SEOK. I've turned in countless spam reports on a particular site with no effect. Wonder why they have a spam report.
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c_bird
Joined: Jun 21, 2002
# Posts: 44
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 18:58
I don't think they're that bothered as long as the results are relevant. I also think they only pick on the little guys.
Look at these fella's they pretty much dominate the financial sectors in google UK. They have 3 listings on page 1 for 'Personal Loans' all with 1210 backlinks. They have a network of domains containing pages and pages of hidden links.
domains :
personal-loans-quotes.couk
personal-loans-broker.couk
1st-personal-loans.co.uk
1st-commercial-mortgages.couk
small-business-loans.couk
1st-business-loans.couk
1st-factoring-quotes.couk
1st-buy-to-let-mortgages.couk
1st-business-insurance.couk
If you then look at these sites the hidden links bring in more domains and so on.
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Muffin
Joined: May 05, 2002
# Posts: 23
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Posted: 2003-Jan-21 22:49
First message in this thread;
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=93dfc7c7.0301210656.79bbc5a%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgoogle.public.support.general
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applied321
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 70
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 05:41
So who's the fool? 
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c_bird
Joined: Jun 21, 2002
# Posts: 44
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 13:36
Who's the fool?
I don't know, I'd feel pretty foolish if I got banned for spamming but it's looking more and more like the only way to succeed.
Are Google thinking of listing on the stock market on the back of their perceived results quality? I imagine an organized public awareness campaign by those suffering at the hands of the spammers might change Googles tune some??
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georged
Joined: Feb 28, 2000
# Posts: 553
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 14:08
Just to echo some of the other posters, I have reported spam too using Google's report page. With zero effect.
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 15:14
Keep in mind that as bad as spam is at Google, they still do a fairly better job than the other major engines. It's a never ending battle.
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c_bird
Joined: Jun 21, 2002
# Posts: 44
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 21:30
thejenn,
conceded, they are slightly better than the rest but that's not saying much.
i think they make a fair amount of noise about fighting spam but nothing really gets done. this hidden link/hidden text problem has been around for ages. obviously they can't catch it with filters and they aren't doing anything else about it.
the poor results would suggest they've given up in the never ending battle you refer to, they don't even act on spam reports.
is there a solution? is the war lost?
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SEOK
Joined: Jul 24, 2002
# Posts: 288
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 20:24
That's what really gets me irritated... If they had just one programmer worth a grain of salt they could have it fixed in less than 20 lines of programming code. Hell... I'll do it! I'd bet it would only take me a couple of hours.
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thejenn
Joined: Aug 08, 2001
# Posts: 9196
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Posted: 2003-Jan-22 21:07
Well, I have actually seen spamming sites removed after they have been reported, so I do know that some action is being taken on their part, but I do agree that I would like to see them tackle this issue more thoroughly. It can be discouraging to spend so much time promoting best practice SEO and to have clients (and posters) see spam filled results and wonder if it's really worth it to play fair.
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applied321
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 70
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Posted: 2003-Jan-23 05:52
Question is, do you want to make Google (and the others) your best friend in the hope of one day getting a Chrsimas Card OR, do you like making money?
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c_bird
Joined: Jun 21, 2002
# Posts: 44
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Posted: 2003-Jan-23 19:51
applied321
I want to make money and at the moment it's looking like the best route is by spamming. I'm fairly new to this though and will be watching for a few more months before doing anything.
If you look at the linked domain network I listed above then you will see that these guys have put a lot of work into their spamming. I'm not prepared to make the same effort and then get banned so I'll be watching these domains (and the other ones involved in the network) and will see whether the listings get removed or not.
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yellowwing
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2526
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Posted: 2003-Jan-23 21:43
SPAM is not a long term investment. If you can make enough money in 3 months, more power to you. Sooner or later the Google spam police will catch up and delist sites using spam.
If you want to make a real mark in the industry and have a proven investment opportunity, then follow the rules and advice given freely in forums such as is found on this helpful site.
My belief is that the same as in any attempts at crime. The #1 objective in crime is not to get caught. In the same amount of effort taken in SPAMing techniques, you can achieve in straightforward honest results.
Believe me, I know about crime. I wan't always an SEO practioner.
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c_bird
Joined: Jun 21, 2002
# Posts: 44
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Posted: 2003-Jan-23 22:48
Hi yellowwing,
Is it your experience that all spam gets removed within 3 months? It would certainly not be worthwhile if that were the case.
I don't have the knowledge to contradict you but reading posts about spam reports would suggest most are being ignored. The work that has been put into the websites I refered to in my initial post would suggest they don't believe they'll be caught. OK if we were talking about some hastily put together websites then 3 months of good earnings may turn a profit, but these are pretty professional.
I think a period of risk assessment is called for.
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applied321
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 70
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Posted: 2003-Jan-24 04:06
I think the only I thing I would suggest it to get on with it, whichever way you want to go. I've only looked at this forum for a week and already found that that's enough for me!
Way too much negative advise, it seems the advice givers don't even have sites and I guess that if they were all millionaires, they wouldn't be posting in here!
If you think that Google is God, Goodluck! (and stay broke)
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applied321
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 70
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Posted: 2003-Jan-24 04:13
PS, If you go back a few posts, the answer staring you in the face!
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